Everything bleeding edge & innovative about creativity!
The Fuel Podcast
How to bring your most creative ideas to life. Nicole Yershon one of the advertising industry’s most imaginative creatives who’s “never say never” approach to business has pushed boundaries, broken taboos, shifted needles and toppled monopolies.
She’s on the show partly to promote her book Rough Diamond – dedicated to all those people who walk amongst us who think differently, courageously and divergently to make our industry the envy of the creative world.
But she’s also on the show to tell us how she got started in the industry and to champion the good work of the creative education system, including Communications Arts; and to explain her proven theory of learning that helps us all to understand biohacking, cyborgism and humans as technology.
How to develop empathy
Where creativity comes from
Mathematics for business
New business advice
How to achieve the work life balance
The importance of trust
Flooding Second Life
Innovative thinking and survival
Intrepreneurship and entrepreneurship
FUEL podcast questions from Keith Smith Friday 31st March 2023
WARM-UP
How does honesty help solve problems, and do you think disruptors tend to be more honest than average (not afraid to ruffle feathers, etc.)?
IT SPEAKS TRUTH - IT CAUSES TRANSPARENCY - HONESTY COMES BEST FROM OBJECTIVITY AND HAVING NO VESTED INTEREST IN ANY SELF-SERVING OUTCOME
Honesty is essential in solving problems because it allows us to be transparent and open with each other while communicating our ideas. When we are honest, there is less risk of misunderstanding or miscommunication, saving a lot of time and energy that would otherwise be wasted.
Disruptors often appear more honest than average because they are unafraid to tell it like it is.
How can creative agencies live less burdensome lives by taking a more trusting approach and relying on MoU*, and what benefits does this bring to the relationship?
TRUST IS TWO-WAY - THERE’S NO TRUST WITHOUT BELIEF IN WHAT YOU ARE DOING - TRUST WHEN ACHIEVED, IS THE HOLY GRAIL AND, IN MY EXPERIENCE, IS THE HIGH BAR FOR EVERYTHING - I SAY I AM GOING TO DO SOMETHING, I DO IT - KEEPING PROMISES AND WALKING THE WALK
Creative agencies cannot be generalised.
What will it take to remove the glass ceiling in the advertising industry?
A CLEAR FRAMEWORK WITHIN WHICH EVERYONE KNOWS THEIR ROLE AND WHY THEY ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO ACHIEVE VALUABLE AND MUTUALLY MEANINGFUL OUTCOMES
It will take a commitment from people in positions of power to create meaningful and long-lasting change that holds true for all stakeholders. This means starting with a comprehensive assessment of current practices, understanding the perspectives of those traditionally excluded or marginalised, and creating an equitable and accessible workplace environment free of bias and discrimination.
LIVING WITH DISRUPTION
Do you still have a bucket list, and if so, what’s on it that you’d share with us?
WELL, I WAS ASKED WHAT I WOULD PUT IN ROOM 101. DOES THAT COUNT?....
GREED - SHORT-TERM THINKING - STUPIDITY - PEOPLE BEING PROMOTED FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS - STRATEGY BY SPREADSHEET
I don’t have a TRADITIONAL bucket list - I take each day as it comes, live in the moment, am grateful, and plan adventures. An example, recently, my friend came back from Thailand to ‘work from anywhere’ - and is doing the same in Italy in April, she is starting at The Amalfi Coast, and by the end of the lunch, I had booked a sale price BA flight to Naples and a cheapy wonderful Airbnb - technology and ability to work from anywhere mean as long as great wifi, you can do both, especially if working for yourself.
How do you recommend that CEOs identify the intrapreneurs in their business?
SPEND TIME LISTENING AND HEARING THE PERSPECTIVES AND REALITIES OF EACH AND EVERY HUMAN. INTRAPRENEURS ARE COMMITTED TO HELPING THE BUSINESS ACHIEVE ITS GOALS WITHOUT BEING TRAPPED BY ALL THE PROCESSES AND RULES THAT USUALLY STOP THE BUSINESS FROM ACHIEVING ITS GOALS
As the CEO of a business, it’s important to identify those team members who are taking the initiative and demonstrating strong leadership skills. Additionally, it’s important to pay attention to innovative ideas in meetings or through informal conversations with staff. It's also beneficial to look out for employees who take risks and challenge the status
Identifying intrapreneurs can be a tricky task for CEOs. The best way to do it is to look out for creative individuals who always come up with new ideas, challenge the status quo, and push boundaries. These people often have a high degree of innovation and enthusiasm that can help drive the business forward.
I USED TO SPOT THEM EVERY MONDAY AT THE MEETING FOR NEW JOINERS
LEARNING
Could you just explain your process of learning semesters?
IDENTIFY A GAP IN LEARNING OR AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRING VALUE THROUGH NEW EXPERIENCES
DESIGN A PROGRAMME THAT WILL DELIVER THE AGREED GOALS
PUBLISH CLEARLY AND WITH CLEAR VALUE PROPOSITIONS THE AGENDA AND CURRICULUM OVER TIME
ALONGSIDE THIS, WORK WITH CONTENT PROVIDERS AND COURSE MATERIALS THAT WILL INSPIRE AND EXCITE THE ATTENDEES
MONITOR AND REFINE AS WE GO
SEMESTERS OF LEARNING
We realised that only focusing and having patience was the only route. We decided to deliver a repeated ‘theme-based’ solution over time. We proved that that was how value would gradually stick and become a focal point for creativity. It worked.
Twice a year, there would be a chosen topic/theme around which we would build a ‘semesters of learning
The Ogilvy Labs in London operates as a self-funded R&D facility that acts as a change agent within Ogilvy Group UK - to ensure Ogilvy is innovating both inside the agency and for our clients.
The Old Ogilvy Labs vision is threefold:
To seek out and engage partners who would help the agency and its clients achieve their business and marketing goals.
To develop, nurture and support new business ventures.
To provide experiences that would inspire through pervasive creativity - such as our Bi-Annual Semesters of Learning.
HUMAN AS TECH & CYBORGISM
How does your theory of Humans and Tech and Cyborgism work? –
HUMANS ARE AT A CRITICAL STAGE - NOBODY IN BUSINESS CAN FAIL TO BE INTRIGUED AND ALARMED BY THE INCREDIBLE POWER OF TECHNOLOGY - ESPECIALLY THE LLM AND AI REVOLUTIONS - I DECIDED TO REMIND EVERYONE ABOUT OUR OWN TECHNOLOGY
PEOPLE ARE INCREDIBLE TECHNOLOGY - WE BUILD INCREDIBLE TECHNOLOGY - BUT IF WE’RE NOT CAREFUL, WE ARE DANGEROUSLY OUT OF BALANCE - MY YEAR LAST YEAR WAS THE BIGGEST SEMESTER FOR ME ALL AROUND THE HUMAN BEING THE BEST TECH THERE IS!
Discuss Ai, Bots, and the Future
We build ever more powerful technology, but it’s important to remember that humans have been, and will always be, at the core of our success. Technology should complement and enhance human capability, not replace it entirely. This is why we believe.
We have incredible ability. We use tools and skills to change our environment and do what we need to achieve our goals. We have physical, mental, and social abilities that help us improve and change our surroundings. But in some cases, we are increasingly at risk of allowing technology to reduce our scope and imagination.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS & CREATIVE THINKING
Can all people be creative, or should it be left to the experts if so, why don’t we see advertising ‘duos’ like we used to?
TWO QUESTIONS I NEED TO SEPARATE -
EVERYONE IS CREATIVE - EVERYONE - EVERYONE
THERE ARE DUOS, BUT WE DON’T HEAR ABOUT THEM SO MUCH BECAUSE THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY IS NOW SO MUCH MORE COMPLICATED, AND MANY MORE CHANNELS AND MEDIA EXIST
ADVERTISING AS IT WAS BACK IN THE DAY NO LONGER EXISTS - WE DO NOT HAVE FAMOUS DUOS BECAUSE THE ADS ARE NO LONGER THAT FAMOUS, AND SOCIETY [AS A WHOLE] DOESN’T WATCH AD BREAKS LIKE THEY DID IN THE PAST.
THE NEW CREATIVE DUO IS LIKELY TO BE A HUMAN AND AI COPILOT
Everyone has the potential to be creative, and it should never be limited by preconceived ideas of what that means. Creative thinking requires us to think differently, challenge our beliefs, and open up new possibilities. It also requires us to avoid rigid rules and embrace experimentation with new technologies. Creativity needs permission to flow freely.
YES, everyone can be creative. When I was at GGT & Simons Palmer, the creativity level was amazing, pushing the boundaries. When I got to Ogilvy I really didn’t see it in the same way. Timesheets, big corporate meetings, and thinking, slow - but I take my hat off to the chairman and CEO’s who allowed me to be ‘truly creative’ for almost 17 years.
How can agencies create the ideal incubator for creativity?
Based on your learning, what is the best way to encourage teams to be more human?
Start by at least understanding the teams and their make-up - Talk about emotional intelligence testing and alternative ways for the team to work. Even my 3 day week 27 years ago.
START-UP MENTALITY
How do you define the Startup mentality?
MENTALITY - BELIEF IN A DREAM - OBSESSION WITH YOUR IDEA - SUBJECTIVITY -
REALITY - A STEEP LEARNING CURVE - A RAPID REALISATION OF A LACK OF EXPERIENCE IN KEY AREAS - DESPERATION ABOUT HOW MUCH IT COSTS - HAPPY WITH ENDLESS MEETINGS UNTIL NO LONGER HAPPY WITH ENDLESS MEETINGS
DAD SAYS NO IS A DEFERRED YES
THE STAGES OF A STARTUP
The stages of a startup are:
Ideation
Planning and Development
Launch and Growth.
This refers to the chapter in my book when I first started at Simons Palmer Denton Clemmow & Johnson. It was a fantastic feeling of ‘all hands on deck’ - No jobs worth, or that’s not what I’m being paid for. They employed passionate, creative, curious, and hard-working people, found a way to make a way mentality, and just so much fun. A bit like GGT, we all have a certain mentality. A can-do mentality.
Does being an intrapreneur require a higher degree of empathy than an entrepreneur (because they have to fit in with company policies etc.)
Yes, it does. It’s about making something happen when someone doesn’t really want to do it. It’s breaking down silos, walls, and naysayers to move something along to ultimately get it finished. Very different from PowerPoint presentations that talk about doing something. This involves finding the right people within an organisation that can go that extra mile.
An intrapreneur will come up against resistance. It’s worthwhile investing in your team with emotional intelligence testing to get the best out of people.
DAVE TROTT
Churchill “We have no money, we shall have to think”
UK pound for pound is more creative than any other country – why do the most creative people always tend to have no money?
I believe that money isn’t necessarily the driver for them. It’s about action and creation. There is a huge satisfaction from completing a project.
The ad industry is now way more about finance, which probably shows you why it isn’t as creative as it was. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand the business need. An entrepreneurial mindset means business is as important as creativity - you merge both.
Give examples of ‘pimping out Rory’, Cannes Lions how we spent lab money, creating a pot of money where there wasn’t one.
STEM LEARNING
Rishi Sunak proposed to make maths compulsory for all pupils until the age of 18 - Thoughts?
I UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS SAYING, BUT IT’S NONSENSE - LIKE SO MUCH GASLIGHTING AND TREATING THE AUDIENCE AS A FOOL. TEACH PROBLEM-SOLVING NOT MATH.
Conrad Wolfram (who knows a lot more about teaching math than Rishi Sunak) said rather than teach sums for which we have calculators: "Explain to kids how math relates to the sizes of the cogs on their bicycles and they will become more engaged than if you just made them do lots of sums."
Having them do abstract calculations and worksheets is not engaging or valuable and won't work.
I understood how important ai & education was going to be - so I invested in a fab company called The Century which combines both AI and Education, about 10 years ago. They work out how the child learns
‘Using learning science, artificial intelligence, and neuroscience, CENTURY creates constantly adapting pathways for students and powerful assessment data for teachers.’
How do you feel about the UK economy and how we should be encouraging creativity as part of the school curriculum?
IT DEPENDS ON THE DEFINITION OF CREATIVITY - CREATIVITY IS NOT A JOB TITLE - IT’S A MENTALITY- BECAUSE WE ARE ALL CREATIVE THE SIN IS AN INBUILT INSTITUTIONAL ABSURDITY - OUR EDUCATION SYSTEM IS DESIGNED FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF THE SYSTEM NOT IN FAVOUR OF THE INVENTION AND PROBLEM-SOLVING RESULTS OF APPLIED CREATIVITY.
PUT ANOTHER WAY IF EVERY SUBJECT WE STUDIED AT SCHOOL WAS ‘APPLIED’ THEN IMAGINE THE WORLD WE MIGHT HAVE.
EXAMPLE OF KIDS - MAKE IT REAL & THEIR CHILD ALLOWANCE AGE 11
I chair Ideas College, which is trying to build a government-funded FREE school for 50 kids who are about to be expelled. The curriculum will look at creativity and arts. Of course, Maths is needed, but not how it is taught today. Conrad Wolfram gives a great perspective on this and Computational Thinking.
‘Schools around the world teach calculation. But computers do that far better and faster than humans. There’s no need to add fractions, teach long division, or factor polynomials–let computers do that. Instead, “humans should learn to use computing tools to address increasingly complex problems.”’
ROUNDING UP
Regarding agencies finding new business, do you have any words of inspiration about how agency owners can think their way around any growth challenges they have?
MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT THEIR VALUE IS - STOP PRETENDING TO BE SOMETHING THEY DON’T DELIVER - FOCUS ON WHAT SHIFTS THE NEEDLE FOR THEIR CLIENTS - BEYOND CREATIVE TREATMENTS - (IDENTIFY THE CAUSE OF THE CLIENTS’ INABILITY TO SUCCEED IN THEIR MARKETS)
CONNECT CREATIVITY, CREATIVE TREATMENTS AND SOLUTIONS TO THE BUSINESS CASE AND STRATEGY OF THE CLIENT - BECAUSE AGENCIES DON’T OFTEN ASK THAT QUESTION THEY BECOME RIGHTLY CONSIGNED TO EXECUTING STUFF.
THEY NEED TO BE RELEVANT BEYOND ADS AND GRAPHIC DESIGNS IN MARKETING AND MEDIA AND IDENTIFY THE ACTUAL CHALLENGE AND SOLVE FOR THAT PROBLEM
Sadly, agencies say they want change or innovation but they really don’t want to invest in it or go through the pain of change. I haven’t been working with agencies since leaving Ogilvy. The work The NY Collective has been doing has been direct with businesses.
The traditional agency model has needed to find hefty amounts of money to pay salaries, buildings, and charges for as many people as possible to attend meetings by the hour. It goes against the thinking of an intrapreneur. They put hurdles in the way.
The main reason I set up the NY Collective was to pull in an enormous black book’s worth of talent across all technologies and verticals. We all run our own companies and we solve the right problem with the right solution. Not shoehorn in a TV ad because that’s how an agency gets paid
Is SXSW still as innovative as it used to be? [accusations it has become too corporately owned] What’s the new epicenter of innovation?
As the event has grown it has become more corporate and less intimate. The panels have been taken over by big tech companies and sponsored content and TALKING AT YOU. This means that opportunities to network with like-minded people are harder to come by, and there's an increased focus on DIFFERENT MORE FOCUSSED GATHERINGS
I went to SXSW 15 years ago, when it was truly exciting. I’m not sure I can give an opinion now as I haven’t been back there for so many years. But the reason I stopped was because I felt it lost its ‘underground’ feel. When that happens I stop going as I always need to find the most innovative ‘underground’ places to be.
That’s why I started going to UP Games, Hatch Experience, The House of Beautiful Business, and Summit at SEA - the places that not many people know about,t are the best ones. The ones where you know no one and it feels uncomfortable. That’s where you learn. Experiences, interactivity, emotional agility workshop, conflict resolution workshop, photography workshop, experience going to a farm for the day and eating off the land and cooking for the group.
What’s coming up for you in the next 12 months?
TRAVEL - FAM - BUSINESS - ALL IN BALANCE
Since Covid times, I’ve been able to develop a beautiful mix of Adventure, spending time with family and friends with a great sprinkle of work on top. The balance is now real. Amalfi Coast, Japan, Lisbon, Friends Wedding, and the ability to work with my clients and Collective ‘from anywhere in the world’
AND FINALLY
Show & Tell: bring an object of significance to you (not people or pets – that’s a given) that you would rush into a burning building to rescue.
APPLE WATCH - GRATITUDE JOURNAL - COFFEE MACHINE
My gratitude Journal has helped keep me grounded, and takes 5 minutes a day to remember even the smallest things/people/events to be grateful for
A book recommendation
Rutger Bregman - Human Kindness - we saw him speak many years ago in London and he was talking about Universal Basic Income. This was before he gave his Davos ‘let’s talk about TAX talk’ - He looks at the world through the eyes of a historian, not an economist, and makes some wonderful human observations.
Your walk-off music choice
HEY TEACHER LEAVE THEM KIDS ALONE
Pink Floyd - The Wall
AND RELATED TO MY CHOICE OF MUSIC - YUVAL NOAH HARARI WAS ASKED WHAT ADVICE HE WOULD GIVE HIS YOUNGER SELF - HE SAID: DON’T TRUST THE GROWN-UPS - THEY MEAN WELL BUT THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT’S GOING ON
It has had a deep political meaning from the very beginning. The original work has criticism towards United Kingdom's educational system as well as a very strong anti-war, anti-fascism meaning.
Plus it’s an amazing walking/stomping track - I do love my walks n steps
Can you give me a piece of lesser-known trivia about you that you’d be happy to share?
I’VE IDENTIFIED WAY BEFORE THE NEW MARKETS PRODUCTS AND SERVICES AND NEVER REALLY TALKED ABOUT THEM - FOR EXAMPLE, WAZE
https://thefuelpodcast.com/nicole-yershon-the-crazy-diamond/
https://marketingpodcasts.net/2023/04/nicole-yershon-the-crazy-diamond/
